Page 1 of 19 
 
Washington Women’s Heritage Project records, 1900-2000 
University of Washington Libraries Special Collections 
Miriamma Mae Carson 
May 10, 1992 
Cassette 1, Side 2 
 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  00:00 
[Laughs]. Have you ever felt a conflict of patriarchal tendencies within organized religion? Just 
to take a sidestep for a minute. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  00:15 
Well, I haven't been in an organized religion. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  00:19 
Is there a reason for that [laughs]? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  00:20 
Well, hypocrisy has always been the number one reason.  
 
Kirsten Anderberg  00:26 
In what way? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  00:27 
I like Unitarianism. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  00:29 
That's funny. So you didn't actually hang out with the women musicians as much? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  00:34 
No, they came to our house. Doris had been to our house, but also they went off on crazy 
tangents, you know, like, take. This one woman who had a son about the same age as Marcus, 
got into being a separatist and bought this land that creatures with an X chromosome--with a Y 
chromosome couldn't come on and left her son with his father [groans]. I never met the father, 
I'm sure he was a nice man and everything, but nonetheless, I mean, my God, that seemed all a 
bit too much. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  00:46 
Really? 
 
Page 2 of 19 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  00:46 
[In a mocking tone] Really? [Inaudible]. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  01:21 
Yeah, that's interesting. That seems too much. Yet, you're pretty radical. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  01:27 
Well, I guess what I think is that men aren't the cause of all this problem, necessarily. It's 
particularly individuals who are--particularly if they're under the age of 12 [laughs].  
 
Kirsten Anderberg  01:32 
Right. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  01:32 
But the big problems are big problems, and individuals are not.  
 
Kirsten Anderberg  01:43 
Do you think having male children somehow tempers feminist women? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  01:49 
It better. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  01:49 
Do you think it does? I wonder.  
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  01:50 
I--well, I've seen changes, but whether people would have changes with that, I really don't know.  
 
Kirsten Anderberg  01:53 
Because my views of separatism has changed now that I have a male child. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  01:55 
Mm-hmm. Well, I never did think too much of separatism, but then, on the other hand, I always 
had male child since I was 22. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  02:09 
Did you have--were you ever attracted to women before you were married? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  02:15 
Well, in high school, I was attracted to women, but-- 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  02:19 
And how did you figure that out? That you-- 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  02:21 
It was when I noticed my feelings. I said, Oh, my.  
Page 3 of 19 
 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  02:27 
Didn't you feel--I feel like I was socialized to not be allowed to feel those feelings. I knew that 
was wrong. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  02:32 
Well, in our family, it wasn't.  
 
Kirsten Anderberg  02:33 
Really? Your family openly talked about being gay? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  02:37 
Oh, yeah.  
 
Kirsten Anderberg  02:37 
You're kidding. That's very interesting, very long ago. Did you have gay people in your family or 
something? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  02:44 
No. But my parents were involved with--well, they were political, they were involved with 
[coughs] an art--they were involved in political and artistic communities in Los Angeles and in 
Fresno. My mother's second husband was a member of the Socialist Workers Party, and Mother 
was involved with Socialist Party, and my father, who was my mother's third husband, was a 
friend of her second husband's, so they were all involved in Socialist Workers Party's stuff. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  03:19 
So-- 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  03:20 
And her--my mother's father was one of the people who brought Norman Thomas to Fresno to 
speak, so-- 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  03:20 
And he was? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  03:20 
He was the head of the Socialist Party of the United States. He ran for president against 
Roosevelt, and whoever Roosevelt ran against, and a lot of people--it was a really funny 
campaign, because he had tremendous support, and sort of like at the last minute, a lot of people 
voted for Roosevelt instead of for him, and Roosevelt was real conservative. And somehow, after 
Roosevelt got elected, he took up a lot of Norman Thomas' [?planks?]. Kind of astonishing. How 
this happened, I don't know, but Roosevelt ran very conservatively the first time, and... I don't 
know--why people--I mean, it was kind of wonderful that people voted for him and that a 
Republican didn't get in, and then he took up the stuff that they wanted to vote for. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  04:15 
Page 4 of 19 
 
Right, that's amazing.  
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  04:15 
Yeah, it's kind of grand.  
 
Kirsten Anderberg  04:17 
If you could plan it, that'd be the way to go. So--but, what I'm trying to figure out is why it was--
why you didn't feel like you were supposed to not--why, in a homophobic society, you didn't feel 
that you had to be homophobic? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  04:30 
Well, I didn't grow up in a society, I didn't grow up in a society. I grew up in Orange County and 
northern Peru, and I was not in any of those societies. Our family was not involved with anybody 
in Orange County. When we first got to Orange County, there were very few educated people, 
and then most of the people, as I say, were Okies or Mexicans. And the educated people invited 
my parents, who were 35 to 36 at the time, to a party. So they were very thrilled to get to know 
people in the neighborhood, so they went to the party. And the party turned out to be a wife 
swapping party. And my parents were totally disgusted, because-- 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  04:57 
That's so stereotypic of California. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  05:07 
I know, it was disgust--and this was, like, in 1947, and my parents believed that people should 
sleep with whoever they wanted to sleep with, and they knew who they wanted to sleep with, and 
it was each other. And just going someplace and doing some stupid ass Spin the Bottle shit, you 
know. My mother had been married--this is her third husband, and she knew who she wanted. 
You know, my father never been married before, and he knew who he wanted, and they wanted 
each other. They didn't want to do this kind of shit. So, they were isolated from those people, 
except that they were friends of the principal of elementary school, but he got fired the next year, 
because he also didn't want to-- 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  05:56 
Do you think that fueled your more radical side, because you didn't have to go by the mores of 
the people around you in those areas? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  06:04 
Oh, I'm sure. Because I didn't really, basically, have anybody that I shared any thoughts with, 
outside my family, because the people I grew up with, if you mentioned a thought to them, it was 
a total foreign experience for them [laughs]. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  06:24 
I met people like that. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  06:25 
You meet a lot of them in Orange County. 
Page 5 of 19 
 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  06:27 
Full of them. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  06:28 
I've met teachers like that. All of my teachers, actually, in elementary school, had some mean 
ones in high school, but elementary school, that was the way it was.  
 
Kirsten Anderberg  06:36 
So you had felt attracted, but you never really went out with any women? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  06:40 
No, well, see what I did was I wanted family, I wanted children-- 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  06:50 
Oh, that's right. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  06:44 
And I didn't want trouble, and I'd already had plenty of trouble. It seemed to me that getting into 
one's lesbian self would be getting into more trouble and not having children, so I decided that, 
since I obviously was sort of going both ways in this, I would go the safer route.  
 
Kirsten Anderberg  06:58 
So you didn't--I mean, you noticed what the culture was leading you along--I mean, you know, 
they were telling you that was the easier way. So you went and you were married for a bunch. 
And then, when did--how did you figure out when you was okay to act on that [laughs]? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  07:17 
Oh, when--well, it was the thing. You know, everybody was sort of doing it, in a way. It was--
when Women's Movement came up, then that became a possible thing that one could do. And I 
was involved with Don at the time, and I thought it'd be interesting, but Don was such a nice 
man. So, blew that, and then Don ran off. So, after I got over that, then I, you know, I met Doris 
and fell in love with her. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  07:46 
That's lucky. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  07:50 
Well, we had a terrible relationship, but [laughs] she was really good for Marcus. I stayed with a 
terrible relationship because I couldn't harm Marcus. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  08:06 
And she's still the mother--kind of a mother figure for Marcus? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  08:10 
Page 6 of 19 
 
Well, he went into total rebellion when he got to teenage-hood. She's a kind of authoritarian, and 
he sort of needed that, because he was in his own head so much when she met him, and so, she 
just sort of battered into his mind and got him out of it. And it's a funny thing, but that's sort of 
what she did. And I couldn't do it, because for one thing, I'm not that, you know, domineering, 
and for another thing, I was what he wanted out of his mind most [laughs]. So--but he reconciled 
with her last year when she graduated--or two years ago. Yeah, two years ago, he went to her 
graduation and reconciled with her so that was really wonderful.  
 
Kirsten Anderberg  09:04 
I see. So, do you feel the feminist community has come to a standstill or going backwards and 
losing ground, or moving forward triumphantly? Or do you think a lot of the stuff that we 
thought was happening was really just an illusion anyway, or a trend, or is it getting better now 
because it's more real now, it's just not as spontaneous--spasmodically enthusiastic, you know, 
like, maybe more centered now? Or what?  
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  09:39 
Well, it seems that a lot of the ideas have matured and that we've won a lot, a tremendous 
amount. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  09:43 
Like what?  
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  09:44 
Well, the whole job thing. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  09:45 
Do women have more jobs?  
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  09:46 
Women have--and higher positions, lots of those higher positions than we ever had before. And 
the whole equal pay business, which isn't happening, of course, but it's a lot closer to equal pay 
in a lot of ways, and having women in the trades, and medical school is unreal, just unreal. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  10:06 
What do you mean? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  10:08 
Number one is just [inaudible].  
 
Kirsten Anderberg  10:09 
Do you feel if you'd been in a different era, you would have gone to medical school? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  10:14 
Oh, yeah, no question about it. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  10:15 
Page 7 of 19 
 
Even if you'd had a kid? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  10:16 
Yeah, because I never considered asking my husband to take care of a kid. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  10:27 
And now you would [laughs]? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  10:27 
Yeah, I would, yeah. Well, Don did. He took care of Marcus. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  10:28 
Well, so you had to see someone do it first, and then you knew it was possible. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  10:35 
Well, you know, after the women's movement started [inaudible].  
 
Kirsten Anderberg  10:38 
Really? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  10:40 
Yeah, I went to a class [inaudible]. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  11:00 
Interesting. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  10:46 
Yeah, because, God, I used to go to run around the university, which is the primo-OB/GYN 
lecture every week, Wednesday morning, eight o'clock, and— 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  11:03 
At Reed or here? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  10:40 
Here, at this university. And when I first came--and I couldn't go to very many-- I mean, couldn't 
go every week, because I just got so grossed out and disgusted and pissed off because they were 
so misogynist. I mean, they just would put down women, just as a matter of course. And this sort 
of "women are scum, and we hate them" ethos that permeated every one of those lectures was 
just too much. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  11:24 
And they were all men teaching them? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  11:24 
And all men listening to them, except for me and a few secretaries, and the occasional nurse. 
And it was just awful. And it went on like this for years, and I remember thinking, this one 
Page 8 of 19 
 
doctor, this one male doctor, I remember thinking, you know, I've never heard that man say 
anything that offended me, like him, that one, that one!  
 
Kirsten Anderberg  11:25 
Sticks out in your mind, doesn't it? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  11:29 
And he's practicing [inaudible]. They'd ask questions to--it'd be the guy lecturing. That'd be the 
guy asking questions--different guy asking questions, whoever would ask a question. And the 
questions were often phrased in these ways that were putting down women. So, you got a pretty 
good idea. And when doing [?hip hop?], when I realized that I had been seeing this guy for 
years, hearing him and never heard him say anything nasty about women. I was really impressed 
[laughs]. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  12:31 
Did you go talk to him? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  12:32 
No, I was... Oh, we were real intimidated. I mean, going, there was something, and I went, a lot. 
More than anybody else, because, you know, I grew up in Orange County, and everybody 
thought I was weird and hated me and kicked me and shoved me anyway, so what the hell, the U 
isn't that different. They won't kick you and shove you, at least. They'll just give you dirty looks 
and not speak to you. And not call on you when you ask questions. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  12:57 
Did you ever try to ask a question there?  
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  13:31 
Very rarely. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  13:34 
Did they ever ask--take your question? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  11:29 
About half the time. And so, anyway, and then there started being these women residents. And I 
went to this one lecture. It was the one right after grand rounds at nine o'clock, and it was 
residence rounds, and I wasn't really supposed to be there. It was a special class for residents, but 
I didn't know I wasn't supposed to be there. Wasn't supposed to be there. And I heard the topic, 
and I wanted to go to it, so I went. I was sitting there, always sort of sat in the back, so as not to 
prevent anything. And this old fart gets up there, and he starts to say something. He says, Well, I 
would have said this differently, but now that we have so many women residents, and the women 
residents said [yells], Yeah, yeah, yeah [laughs]! I realized that that was the end of a long, long, 
long battle. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  13:36 
Move up a few rows next time. 
Page 9 of 19 
 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  14:03 
That was pretty grand, and that--the woman [inaudible]. Who would've thought that... She came 
out in residence rounds, her last time. I went to residence rounds, it was her last one before she 
finished. She'd been--she'd been chief resident at the UN I'd taken a baby in--a problem--mother 
had been having a problem in her labor, and I took her in and dealt with this woman, and I was 
very impressed by her. She was totally exhausted, completely exhausted. And I was very 
impressed by how cautious she was in terms of her medicine, and also in terms of being really 
straight and honest with me as a woman. Anyway, so I'm sitting there in grand rounds, and she 
comes in dressed in a black leather jacket and these black trousers, this boots, and her haircut, it's 
sort of a [?DA?] and I said to myself, Hmm, that certainly looks lesbian. And when I said to 
myself, Gee, this is the--this is May--or June rather. Yeah, end of June. So you know, you could 
say she was coming out in her last grand round. Sure looks like she's coming out in her last grand 
round [laughs]. So sure enough, I heard later that she and a nurse moved to Los Angeles, and 
was a lesbian [laughs]. So that was pretty funny, and she's great. Oh, I can't remember her name. 
She was head of the Resident Association when they had that strike, when they were trying to get 
them--was best just to make them not work three days straight. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  15:31 
So did they start changing their language, really? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  15:34 
Language, yes, totally. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  15:34 
Really?  
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  15:34 
Oh, yeah. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  15:35 
So as soon as women got into the room, they were totally conscious, so they knew. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  15:41 
No, the women made a lot of fuss.  
 
Kirsten Anderberg  15:43 
Oh, so-- 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  15:43 
Those residents fought their way through. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  15:45 
Did the men know they were being--talking that way? Or did someone have to bring it out? Or 
do you think they already knew-- 
 
Page 10 of 19 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  15:54 
Oh, no-- 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  15:56 
That they just could get away with it? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  15:58 
Oh, I think it was probably a combination. But when those res--those first women residents 
fought their way through. They just battled their way through. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  15:59 
In what way, what would they have to do? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  16:02 
Every time they heard piece of bullshit, they said it was bullshit, you know? Every time they 
could, when they weren't too tired or too distracted. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  16:10 
And I guess, because there was a bunch of them, there was more than one, so they could do that 
now. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  16:14 
And also, it was the design of the times. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  16:16 
Oh right, ever since the media-- 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  16:17 
Because these guys' wives were doing the same thing from the other side [laughs]. [?And then?] 
it happened.  
 
Kirsten Anderberg  16:23 
Are women still going to doctor school? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  16:30 
Oh yeah. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  16:31 
In residence? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  16:32 
Oh yeah. More than half the OB/GYN residents are women. They're almost all women. 80% of 
them are women. And you go there, now--I go every week, and I never hear anything that insults 
me anymore. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  16:40 
Page 11 of 19 
 
Really? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  16:40 
The last time I heard somebody that insulted me, it was somebody from a different school. Guys 
at the U don't insult anymore. Well, some great things happened. David Eschenbach, who was a 
resident there, worked at Aradia and then he continued being resident there, and he did a lot of 
investigations in PID and in bacterial vaginosis. And then he went off to the army, and he came 
back, and he's a res--I think he's a teacher now or something, I don't know. He's on the staff 
somewhere or another, clinical staff or something. I don't know what he does, but, you know, 
Aradia taught him to be reasonable. So these guys had an opportunity to see what being 
reasonable was like. You know, they have a little role model there. David was a great little role 
model, I'm sure. And then the women were just pounding them, just pounding them. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  16:40 
That's great. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  16:42 
All the time. I mean, it was clear from that lecture when old What's-His-Name all up and--the 
hell is that guy's name? I saw him the other day. I always think his name's Lauren, and it wasn't. 
Someone said his name and I said, God damn, why don't I remember this guy's name every time 
I see him? [?Timing?], I think. But anyway, yeah. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  17:30 
Yeah, Aradia must have been a--that was part of the same circuit as the Fremont Women's 
Clinic, wasn't it? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  17:45 
Yeah, Aradia was the first clinic, first women's clinic [?in history?]. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  17:55 
Here? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  17:55 
Not here. Open Door was the first community clinic we started. And then Aradia had opened 
doors. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  17:57 
Opened doors in the U-District? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  18:03 
Uh-huh. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  18:03 
But it's closed now, right? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  18:06 
Page 12 of 19 
 
Yes. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  18:07 
And they have Country Doctor somewhere too.  
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  18:09 
Yeah, Country Doctor came before Fremont, but after Aradia, certainly after. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  18:15 
And Aradia doesn't seem to be really happening anymore, right? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  18:18 
Oh yeah, Aradia is happening, but it's not a community clinic. Oh, definitely. Marcy Bloom is 
running Aradia and she's in her own spokesperson [?since?] she left college.  
 
Kirsten Anderberg  18:18 
Oh, really? Oh, great. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  18:19 
Oh, yeah, they have--they do abortions there, and women's healthcare-- 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  18:29 
So, do you think that there's just as many women's clinics as there were, but--or less now? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  18:34 
Well, it's a whole different thing. It's permeated the society. There are lots of women doctors. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  18:39 
Now they're in regular practices. You don't have to go to another clinic. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  18:42 
Mm-hmm. Yeah. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  18:44 
And what's this thing with this birthing thing you got into [laughs]? How'd you do that? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  18:48 
Well, there was a birthing collective, or a birthing group called New Life Birth Services. I 
thought it was called New Life--anyway, it was that--a Country Doctor--this guy, Jim, was a 
doctor there, and they did prenatal care, home births, and a lot of people were sort of training for 
midwives, and then we wanted to do one at Fremont. So we had a big meeting, and a bunch of us 
ended up sort of doing it. And we got a couple of residents to--well, we got one resident to help 
with Steve Boyd. And then this doctor came--just walked in, and he was sort of one of the 
walking wounded. He hadn't finished his family practice residency in Sacramento, I believe, or 
Davis. Because it was just so--the--he's a very gentle man, and I think it was the way that 
patients were treated, and the way women were treated and that, so I think it was that he--one of 
Page 13 of 19 
 
his friends, had killed a baby, putting forceps on and clamping the cord. The cord was right by 
the head, clamped the cord and killed the baby. And I think it was that, plus the Vietnam War, I 
think he wasn't in the Vietnam War, but I think that it was just all too much for him. And he had 
a girlfriend who was a nurse, and she came up with him, and they came up here, and she got a 
job, and was sort of supporting the women. And he came to our clinic and started working in our 
peds clinic. And then he started [inaudible]. So he started [inaudible], such a sweetie. He 
wouldn't pay his goddamn parking tickets. Finally, I got him to just put them on the desk at the 
clinic and make him pay them. I said, He's gonna get carried off in handcuffs on his way over 
one day, and he just could not put that together. Anyway. So he was doing it, and we were--we 
had Myles Midwifery books from England, and we were studying the books, and we're getting 
lectures from him. And I was doing lectures on prenatal care, because I had [coughs] [inaudible] 
around. And there was another midwife who had worked with the New Life Birthing Service and 
Country Doctor. And so we started it, and we started doing births. And always the doctors went 
on at first, and then the doctor stopped going on. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  21:14 
The births at the place? At the clinic? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  21:16 
No, they were at home. They were home births.  
 
Kirsten Anderberg  21:17 
And you guys would all go together? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  21:21 
Well, two of us, plus a doctor. And basically, we really didn't know what we were doing, we 
were incredibly lucky. Everybody was incredibly lucky-- 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  21:33 
And courageous too. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  21:34 
Yeah, [inaudible]. I don't know what happened, but in those years, everybody who had at home 
birth had a normal, successful home birth. I don't know what [inaudible]. But complications all 
came later, and they all came at the same time, all over Washington and Oregon, but--all in 
Washington, Oregon, and California, for the most part. Was certainly Washington, Oregon. 
Everything went well, and we got to learn with easy complications. It was kind of sad for us. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  22:08 
And then did something happen? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  22:11 
Then stuff started happening, yeah. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  22:12 
And it became more--you guys weren't so happy-go-lucky, or way more cautious or something? 
Page 14 of 19 
 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  22:17 
We did get that way. The state also threatened to close us down. And when the state threatened 
to close us down, then there were four of us at the clinic at that time doing births--no, there were 
six of us, and the other five left and started the Seattle Midwifery School. And then we all went 
through as the first class. I stayed at the clinic because my Women's Healthcare Specialist thing, 
and they started school. So that was random school stuff. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  22:49 
And then how did you end up branching out, doing them yourself? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  22:53 
Well, then after I finished midwifery school, a woman who was a patient, had two babies 
through us, wanted to be my partner. So she was-- 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  23:19 
In birthing? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  23:05 
Yeah, she was a CEA instructor, childbirth education instructor, but she wasn't a nurse. She got 
in Snohomish County. King County, you have to be a nurse, in every place else, you don't. So 
she got hers in Snohomish County with a friend of hers. And so she kind of lit a fire under me 
[laughs] and we organized it. Another patient always set up the books. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  23:26 
Set up what, her birth? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  23:33 
No, the financial books, you know, because we didn't know how to do bookkeeping. So this 
patient set up the books. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  23:40 
For Seattle Midwifery. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  23:41 
No, for me. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  23:42 
Oh, for you. Oh, so she kind of started your business by setting you up. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  23:46 
Yeah, yeah. And then she and I were partners for a while. And then she couldn't do it anymore, 
and then I met Barbara. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  23:52 
And how'd you meet Barbara? 
Page 15 of 19 
 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  23:54 
Well, Marcus was going to this preschool, AS-1, and... 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  24:02 
Which I've had a nightmare with, my kid [laughs]. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  24:04 
I know, it wasn't right for you. It was right for Marcus. And Barbara was a founder, basically, of 
what led into that school. And Nicholas went to preschools in Los Angeles--one preschool in Los 
Angeles, which is very similar to AS-1. And I had tried to get to know the parents there, and they 
were all in [?ticks?] of one so or another. And basically, I couldn't possibly stand them. So I 
hadn't, in all the years Mark had been in AS-1, I'd never met any parents, and Doris wanted us to 
go on a camping trip with AS-1, they had these, you know, these cabins. So I sort of agreed to go 
for one night. So I went up to Whidbey Island or someplace like that. But one night where the 
kids were in, and I was working in the kitchen, and I met Barbara and bunch of other women, 
and they were just great. I was really impressed by the mothers of AS-1 students. No, but 
Barbara, my partner, was just leaving me, it just became sort of clear that she couldn't do it 
anymore, and Barb's--the doctor Barb had been working with was going out of practice.  
 
Kirsten Anderberg  25:08 
And what was she doing? She was a... 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  25:11 
She was a CEA instructor also, and she wasn't a nurse either. And she'd gotten hers through the 
International, and she was--had been helping this doctor, and she had actually done some babies 
on her own because he hadn't gotten to the house in time. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  25:28 
Oh, wow. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  25:28 
So... 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  25:28 
What a courageous woman herself, geez. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  25:27 
Oh, yeah, well, she'd studied a lot. She had her youngest son on the boat, when she wasn't with 
that doctor. So, we got together. Worked out really, really well, because we're different enough 
that our skills compliment each other and our ways of thinking compliment each other. We have 
the same basic ideas. So it worked out real well. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  25:52 
Yeah, I found that when I was going through my hellish thing, it was nice to oscillate between 
your two personalities. Sounds interesting. And so how many babies did you guys birth together? 
Page 16 of 19 
 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  26:02 
Well, I don't know how many we did together, but-- 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  26:04 
How many of you done? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  26:06 
200, and she's done about 200. I think we did about over 100 together. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  26:11 
Over how much time, a decade? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  26:35 
I don't know how long we did it, but I just can't figure that out. I got my license in 1980.  
 
Kirsten Anderberg  26:38 
Your birthing--midwifery license? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  26:22 
Yeah, and I worked with Teresa for three or four years--three years maybe, I don't know. So, I 
was with Barb for seven years, six years, something like that. I'm not really sure. First birth we 
went on, the woman hemorrhaged, and hemorrhages never bother me at all. I just told Barbara 
what to do and then I'll, you know, get stuff ready. And then I did a [inaudible] when I was doing 
bimanual compression. Barbara was really impressed that I was so cool. I don't know why. It's 
not a big deal, as long as you have the right drug and you know what to do when you sit there 
and watch [inaudible]. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  26:41 
Did you guys ever have any, you know, times when you really wondered what you were doing, 
or, you know, did you ever get in a situation where you thought, Oh, my God, I might be over 
my head, you know? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  27:14 
Well, the wonderful thing about university [inaudible]. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  26:40 
Right, that's true. So you had some confidence in that, that you felt like even though, if 
something's going wrong, you'd be able to get somewhere.  
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  26:44 
Oh, yeah, we did get somewhere. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  27:17 
Really? 
 
Page 17 of 19 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  27:17 
Well, the U is--you know, they'll take care of anything, and they're really, really good, and you 
call ahead, and they're real Christian, and they know what they're doing. When we first used to 
go to the U, [laughs] they used to throw out the charts on the floor.  
 
Kirsten Anderberg  27:30 
Why? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  27:30 
Because we couldn't possibly have done a good job, since [?we're not a?] doctor. Seems to throw 
a trifle on the floor and then re-blood--and draw all the bloods, you know, like blood typing. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  27:38 
[Groans] Aww. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  27:39 
[Inaudible] redraw the--all the bloodwork. But they changed a lot, as I say, everywhere, they 
changed a lot. So that by the time we were going there, would be nurses on every shift and 
doctors on every shift who were pro-home birth. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  27:48 
Really? That's amazing. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  27:58 
Yeah, it was great. I mean, other people complain about the U, I just really don't have anything 
to complain about the U. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  28:13 
Did you feel that home birthing came to a peak and now it's less popular again? Or do you think 
it's still maintaining its popularity?  
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  28:19 
I think it's still maintaining its popularity. There are so many people doing home births in Seattle, 
you know? 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  28:20 
Really? I just see the hospitals incorporating birthing rooms. It seems like everyone I know that 
would do a home birth is now doing it in a hospital, in a birthing room. And I'm wondering why 
they're not doing it at home.  
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  28:35 
Well, I think the reason is because, when we first started, it was impossible to have a good birth 
at the hospital. It was not a possibility. Now it is a possibility. It can happen. It can. It won't, 
now, necessarily, but it can happen. And I think that the business aspect of it has driven the 
hospitals to do a whole lot of stuff. And these birthing rooms are, you know, part of it, because 
Page 18 of 19 
 
they were afraid home births were increasing so fast that they were afraid they were gonna lose, 
really, you know, half their business or something. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  29:12 
Wow. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  29:13 
And so, they did put in these birthing rooms, and that's part of it, you know, that's it. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  29:18 
That's a great sign. 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  29:18 
And then, you know, as soon--also, as soon as the nurses got used to home birth patients, they 
realized that they preferred them. Most nurses prefer home birth patients transported at the U. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  29:28 
Why was that be? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  29:33 
Because a home birth patient usually feels responsible for herself and her birth, and her labor, 
and her baby. Whereas many people who don't choose home births have given all the 
responsibility away, and as you know, from being in labor, it is yours [laugh]. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  29:56 
It can be all I can think of. Men never have something where they can't leave it for tomorrow, 
like this. This is unreal.  
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  30:01 
Only when they get old. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  30:02 
Yeah, that's--and so now you don't do it because of--just because you want your life back, too 
much on call stuff or what? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  30:10 
Well, there's just a whole lot of reasons. 
 
Kirsten Anderberg  30:12 
When did you quit midwifing? 
 
Miriamma Mae Carson  30:13 
Well, I mean, basically I quit-quit when I worked--went to work for Virginia Mason because 
Virginia Mason wanted me to quit because of the insurance thing, but it was with relief. Or just a 
whole lot of reasons. One reason was that my relationship with Doris had cracked up. Was over 
with, and Marcus was being a lunatic, and I really needed the support at home to be able to do 
Page 19 of 19 
 
the verse. And after Doris and I split up, I could get the support from the kids when I had all the 
foster kids, and I could get it from Mark. I don't need much at all, but when I come home, I need 
somebody there who will be calm and will see me. And the kids would do that, but then Mark 
was gone, and I didn't have that anymore. 